“I always want to make sure that no one has to be alone in their feelings, thinking they are not fitting in with any group. Because you know what? You're never the only one. There is such a big community of people out there. And I know the power of getting to connect with someone who has a similar experience. That really is almost magical how it can make the burden dissolve a little bit.” - Jason Jie
In this open and deeply human conversation with Jason Jie (he/him/they/them), he shares his multifaceted background as well as his personal growth journey.
With parents who were born in Suriname, grandparents from China, he grew up and lives in the Netherlands. Jason’s a fan of comic books, glitter and Celine Dion. In his work life he is a DEI Specialist at Deloitte Consulting and a researcher at Tilburg University where he specifically focuses on what organizations can do to stimulate more inclusive behaviors, particularly through subtle, everyday acts of inclusion. In his personal life he is actively exploring parenthood with his partner Peter, which is quite a journey in itself.
“Some people think that it's all glitter and glamor in DEI, and we just want to share the behind the scenes of what it's really like for you to do this work.” - Vivian Acquah
“Well, first of all, I love glitter.” - Jason Jie
Personally and professionally, Jason notices that he is becoming more and more of an activist and coming more into himself in terms of identity. Our conversation dives deeper when we talk about what Jason would like others to remember him for when he’s not in the room, and about what doing good means to him.
“Good isn’t something you are, it’s something you do. I love that because that’s just as important with inclusion: it's all about behavior, the things that you do. So it's not ‘I am inclusive’ because it's about how you do it, instead. That is actually what counts.” - Jason Jie
We all have a unique perspective and lived experiences and Jason consciously brings his into his work, into every interaction. Finding himself within the LGBTQIA+ community and also growing up at a cultural intersection in the Netherlands: ‘I was never Dutch enough, I thought. I was never Surinamese enough nor ever Chinese enough. So I did a lot of figuring out, okay, where do I belong then? Who am I and what do I bring to the table?’
He came to find that, actually, he belongs to all of them. He has bits and pieces of all of it and has started to embrace that more.
Jason has experienced the effect of sharing. It’s funny how when you open up, other people also tend to open up about what their experiences are, what they felt. For Jason this is an important way to start conversation and dialogue as well as a way to keep learning from each other, with an open mindset.
“The truth is, we never stop learning. Actually, the real superpower is to say hey, I don’t know about this topic. And then staying curious, staying in dialogue and asking questions.” Jason Jie
In his work, Jason notices that organizations can keep revolving around diversity, thinking ‘we have representation, ticked the box’, and not having broader, continued conversations about equity and inclusion. He invites deeper thought into what DEI means to you and to also share those thoughts with others. It’s important to find your own ‘DEI recipe’ in terms of what you stand for, Vivian notes. Additionally, the moment that you are sharing that with others, from there on out you can define your team recipe: ‘This is what we stand for’.
One session that Jason vividly remembers was a session where a participant insisted that homophobia doesn't exist anymore in the Netherlands. As a professional, he was able to facilitate the discussion professionally enough. But afterwards, in hindsight, there was a moment that I reflected on it and thought, hey, what the actual F just happened. His emotions came out on his way home in the car, from overwhelm and having been triggered by the micro-aggression and invalidating experience. Jason’s a professional, and yes, professionals have emotions too, that need processing. He notices that realness and vulnerability comes with a challenge, and dealing with this is a learning journey.
“The work is really something that's near and dear to me, which means I'm continuously still practicing [how to cope with negative experiences].”- Jason Jie
In the middle of it, he is still someone who will ask and get curious about where the other person is coming from.
This response is a defense mechanism from the past for Jason as well, functioning by way of covering up the situation and mitigating instead of confronting the other. Nowadays, rather than masking, this now means considering, ‘Okay, how can I use this energy in a different way?’ and he is now able to turn the conversation to a more constructive direction.
“Resilience requires you to be in a specific mindset. I need that energy to counterbalance the inner voices that tell me ‘you are not enough’.” - Jason Jie
Behind the scenes, Celine Dion songs are a great way for Jason to just let the emotions go. To really take his mind off this stuff, he loves diving into superhero comics and video games. He also sometimes really needs to vent, share with his partner and just get things out of his system in a workout.
Another way to be positive and resilient is a perspective Jason heard from David Mixner speaking at the Amsterdam Pride Talk in 2023, who said that if there's resistance, and there is a lot of loud resistance currently, that means that change is happening and we should continue with what we are doing,
“Loud resistance can be the sound of encouragement.” - Marjolijn Vlug
Jason also believes in the value of uniting rather than being tricked into opposing others. We should also stand together and really unify. Human rights should never be a negotiable kind of thing, and we should all stand together, whether it's feminist or transgender rights or antiracism. Because if we really combine those forces, there's no denying them anymore. Then it actually is a force that can't be stopped. That's what he foresees and hopes for this decade ahead.
“It may not be enough to just take up a red pencil and vote. Let's also educate ourselves on challenging our leaders to be leaders. Asking questions and demanding a stance that decides who you're gonna vote for.” - Jason Jie
About his own future, Jason is aware of his personal development and is happily surprised that being himself inspires others.
“Who am I becoming? More and more comfortable in my own skin. Growing more and more comfortable with who I am and what I want to be. What I’m becoming is more of myself. We need more people who really are okay with themselves and other people who allow others to be.” - Jason Jie
By bringing your own humanness everywhere, you unlock the humanness in others. Expanding your horizon and taking care of yourself is the biggest recommendation Jason shares. When you take care of yourself, you’re better able to help others.
About Jason Jie
Jason (he/they) is a DEI Specialist and accredited Inclusive Leadership Assessment coach. Besides working as a consultant, he is also a PhD candidate at Tilburg University, focusing on subtle workplace inclusion/exclusion behaviors. He views the world from a queer, Chinese-Surinamese Dutch perspective.
Listen to the full audio episode in the player (top of the page) or in your podcast app.
Connect with Jason via LinkedIn
Resources & references in this episode:
Jason’s favourite Celine Dion hits medley
‘Measuring Inclusive Leadership: Do you think you’re inclusive? Or know you’re inclusive?’, an article Jason wrote for Deloitte.
‘Everyone needs to feel part of the group’, another article for Deloitte about Jason’s experiences and perspective.
Ms. Marvel with main character Kamala Khan, a Muslim American teenager growing up with super powers, on Disney+
Uniting for Inclusion: Jason Jie's Resilience in DEI Work